Since its founding as a Christian marketing agency in 2018, Marketing with Wisdom has grown into a full-service agency driven by a team of world-class marketers and creatives.

Wisdom Moon is the beloved Founder and CEO of Marketing With Wisdom. Before launching this Christian marketing agency, Wisdom spent many years leading marketing teams for various businesses, nonprofits, churches, personal brands, record labels and artists.

Over 20 years of leadership experience and 17 years of marketing experience makes Wisdom uniquely qualified to lead a team that is passionate about serving mission-driven organizations.

He is excited to lead a team of innovative marketers that share a passion to serve organizations, and offer over 40 years of combined experience and knowledge in the industry. Our team consists of marketers, advertisers, graphic designers, web designers and social media managers.



INTRO: Welcome to In A World With Real Media. I’m your host, Brad Burrow. In this podcast, we’ll dive into the lives of the most successful people in business. We’ll learn how they overcame adversity, took advantage of opportunities and learned from their experiences. Learn from our experts. It inspired, then go live your story. It’s in a World with real media.

Brad Burrow: Hello and welcome to the In A World With Real Media Podcast. And I’m sitting here today with Wisdom Moon and Wisdom has a marketing company. Um, you can, you find them at Um, I’ve actually known of you wisdom for a long time. Yeah. I mean, uh, back in the days when I was at Grace Church and leading, not leading worship, but I was in the worship band and, and Ben and that whole crew. And yeah. You know, just recently we’ve kind of reconnected and, and, uh, it’s, it’s great to, great to reconnect with you and stuff. That’s pretty cool.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. I remember it playing with you <laugh>. I played acoustic and Yeah.

Brad Burrow: Did we play together? Yeah,

Wisdom Moon: We did I think a few times. Yeah.

Brad Burrow: Okay. Awesome. Yeah, it’s the whole, the whole Grace Church thing. You know, Ben is like a brother to me. Yeah. I mean, we, we were, you know, I helped, when I came to Grace there were 150 people Oh,

Wisdom Moon: Wow.

Brad Burrow: <laugh>. And, uh, you know, the, it was funny cuz the Worship, the worship was an attitude piano that the school had <laugh> and uh, you know, couple speakers we put up on stands and, uh, pretty much all hymns, you know, we did hys, which was fine. And, uh, you know, then, then I got to know Ben and, and Pastor Tim. And then they, uh, like found out about my background. I was a full-time musician for 15 years Oh wow. And, uh, traveled and tried to get signed and all that stuff. Wow. And they’re like, Hey. So we started writing, we wrote an album together, Ben and I did. Yeah. Wow. Uh, a lot of history there and yeah. Helped ’em design the, the very first iteration of the building that they’re in now. Oh,

Wisdom Moon: Wow.

Brad Burrow: Man. So, and all that stuff. That’s amazing.

Wisdom Moon: That’s pretty cool.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. Pretty cool stuff. And Ben’s really done a good job out there. Yeah. So didn’t plan on going that direction with the podcast now, <laugh>. But, uh, anyway. That’s awesome. So, so tell me, tell me a little bit about what you do right now. Gimme a little kind of the, uh, the, the, uh, four 11 on, on your marketing company.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. So I started a marketing agency four years ago, and prior to that I was in Nashville for a few years, working at a couple of Christian record labels, doing marketing. And then really felt, uh, like there was a huge need for, uh, especially music marketing help for Christian artists and bands. And there’s a lot of churches releasing music. And so that was a big focus when we were launching four years ago. Um, so we’ll be coming up on five years in a few months, and we really [00:03:00] help a lot of Christian artists churches with their music releases. And then we also have a few businesses and nonprofits we help as well. So,

Brad Burrow: So what labels, was it labels that you were working for? Yeah. Or tell me a little bit about those in Nashville. I’m really interested

Wisdom Moon: Here about those. So, uh, I worked at one label called Centricity Music. And Centricity Music is, uh, who actually found Lauren Daigle, uh, if anybody knows who that is, she’s, and

Brad Burrow: You’re still working with Lauren,

Wisdom Moon: Right? Uh, not currently, no. Oh, okay. Uh, but yeah, when I was at the label she was developing, at the time she was a developing artist at the label. She didn’t have any music out. She was, uh, writing a lot of songs and putting out a lot of cover videos on YouTube. And then, so I did, uh, some marketing there, worked in marketing and publishing at the label. And then, uh, I moved on to Integrity Music where, um, there are a lot of church, you know, worship songs that come out of, uh, that catalog of, uh, tens of thousands of songs that they have over, you know, decades. Yeah. And so I got to work in publishing and marketing there as well. And, uh, really, I guess the way I got into it is, uh, actually I started a podcast in 2006 <laugh>. Yeah. Right. So I

Brad Burrow: Was, that was before anybody knew what a podcast was.

Wisdom Moon: Right. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I was in California and I was given an iPod for, [00:04:30] for gift, like a Christmas gift. And, uh, I didn’t really think it was a great idea to have an iPod, you know, I was like, why would people want to have an iPod? You know?

Brad Burrow: And then, is that right?

Wisdom Moon: Discovered like the podcast category in iTunes. And then I just really started getting into podcasts, you know, listening to them. And then I was actually full-time at a church at the time, uh, as a youth

Brad Burrow: In

Wisdom Moon: Nashville leader in California. Oh,

Brad Burrow: California,

Wisdom Moon: Okay. Yeah. So I was like, well, there aren’t really any podcasts for worship leaders. I think there were like two at the time. Uh, and there weren’t just that many podcasts in general. Yeah, right. So I, uh, twisted my wife’s arm cuz she was leading worship with me to start the podcast with me. And, uh, if you remember MySpace, that was the MySpace Days <laugh>. So

Brad Burrow: People are going, wait, what? What?

Wisdom Moon: Yeah, I’m pretty old. <laugh> <laugh>. Uh, so I basically started [00:05:30] connecting with people on MySpace, like worship leaders, and I would have them on the podcast kind of like this and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but over the phone. And we did, uh, basically conversational podcast about worship leading and church ministry. And, uh, I didn’t know it at the time, but I was getting into the arena of marketing. So I, I tell people I accidentally got into marketing <laugh>. I wasn’t planning on getting into marketing. I didn’t even know what was Yeah. And through having [00:06:00] my own, you know, podcast and platform, uh, and that seeing that grow, uh, that, you know, gave me a lot of opportunities to learn about marketing and learn about business. And yeah. When I, uh, I think it was two months into the podcast, we were in the top 100 podcast under the Christian category, cuz there were probably only a hundred

Brad Burrow: Podcasts. <laugh>. Yeah. Still awesome though.

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>. Yeah. So that actually opened up, uh, the door for me to build relationships [00:06:30] in the Christian music industry. So

Brad Burrow: Did you find people wanted to, you know, had heard about the podcast and wanted to be on your podcast? Is that what,

Wisdom Moon: So, you know, when I first started, I would always have to ask people, you know, Hey, would you do a pod? You know, I would have to explain what a podcast was

Brad Burrow: Too,

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>. And then, uh, I would reach out to different, like publicists and, um, you know, it was kind of a long shot sometimes, uh, but I would start to get yeses. And so, uh, the first one [00:07:00] I actually interviewed, uh, I reached out to this artist manager, his name’s Pavlo, she wrote like, opened the Eyes of My Heart.

Brad Burrow: Yeah, yeah. That’s a big name. Yeah. So, well I know that name. Yeah.

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>. Uh, he was coming to a, a conference I was going to in, uh, Texas, I think it was Austin, Texas. Uh, it was a worship leader conference. Yeah. So I reached out to his manager ahead of time and then I asked him, Hey, would you be open to doing a podcast? And so I showed up with this like mini digital recorder, <laugh>, and [00:07:30] uh, got to interview Paul. And then that kind of opened up doors for me to interview other people at the conference. And then after the conference, I got to interview more and more people that people would recognize, you know, uh, like artists that have released music Yeah. Or written big songs. And so, uh, I, and actually Ben, we were talking about, he, I asked him to be a co-host once I moved here and became friends with him. Right. Uh, and you know, around that time I was like, man, it [00:08:00] wouldn’t be crazy if people asked us if they could, you know, have their artists inter be interviewed on our podcast. And then yeah, lo and behold, that started happening, <laugh>, and we started to you

Brad Burrow: Spot it in happened, huh.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. So that was pretty cool to experience that, especially something that people weren’t really familiar with. And we did a lot of education as far as like how to listen to a podcast, what a podcast is, and we would literally use like Ben’s office phone on speaker to interview [00:08:30] <laugh>,

Brad Burrow: You know? Is that right? Yeah. That’s funny.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah.

Brad Burrow: <laugh>, that’s funny. Yeah. It’s, it’s, uh, really, really evolved. Hasn’t, yeah. Podcasting has really evolved. It’s pretty, pretty cool to see. Um, so how did you end up in Nashville?

Wisdom Moon: So, yeah, my, uh, my, the website and podcast was growing. So I basically, uh, at the time was working part-time at a church as a worship leader and building like that platform and then doing some consulting [00:09:00] on the side too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> cuz I had a few companies that reached out asking for some help. So I would help manage their social media and provide some marketing consulting. And, uh, one of the companies that reached out was Centricity music, and they said they were launching, uh, basically like the worship imprint of the label and asked me if I would help with that. And

Brad Burrow: So they came after you?

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. That’s really cool. They wanted me to join their team and at the time I was here and they were, [00:09:30] uh, asking me to move there. So

Brad Burrow: You came to Kansas City first

Wisdom Moon: From California? Yeah, so we were in Kansas City, um, for about seven years. Uh, and then, uh, I had turned down that job offer at Central City and then, uh, you know, at the time my wife and I weren’t really ready to move, uh, anywhere. Yeah. And then, uh, I think it was like six months later my wife and I were talking in, we felt like, you know, it was time for us to move to Nashville. Yeah. And it wasn’t actually for that job or anything, but, [00:10:00] uh, between that time basically Centricity became a client of mine. I was helping with like social media and the marketing. And so I let them know, Hey, we’re moving to Nashville, and they asked me to come on their team again, <laugh>. So that time I said yes. And, uh, we moved and I joined their team. Uh, and then yeah, I learned a lot about the music industry because I didn’t go to school for the music industry Yeah. Or marketing or anything like that. And they just saw what [00:10:30] I had done and like what I had built. Um, the podcast was called All About Worship. And so they wanted me to basically do that for the label. So

Brad Burrow: Pretty cool. So were you able to accomplish that? I mean, did you share share

Wisdom Moon: A So it’s called, uh, centricity Worship is Still Going and Yeah, we actually started a podcast and, uh, website and yeah. All the things and started releasing music under that name Centric Worship or Centricity Worship. So yeah.

Brad Burrow: [00:11:00] Then you ended up going to Integrity after that and then Yeah. Then coming, coming back to Kansas City.

Wisdom Moon: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it, it was a really great experience just like, um, meeting, you know, different artists like, you know, Lauren Dayl and even getting to see how they were being developed and their journey. Uh, it was actually kind of funny, uh, before Lauren, I think released any music. Uh, I had reached out [00:11:30] to a big worship conference and I said, Hey, uh, we have a new artist and she’s also a worship leader. Uh, could she come and lead worship for a session? So they gave her like a small morning session, you know, cuz nobody knew who she was. Right. And then, so, um, I basically was her chauffeur when she came to Kansas City. I drove her to the conference and all, all that stuff. Was

Brad Burrow: That at Grace?

Wisdom Moon: Uh, it was, no, it was at Core.

Brad Burrow: Oh, at Core? Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. And then, uh, basically [00:12:00] a few months after, uh, our team basically felt like, okay, there’s something happening with Lauren. It just feels different and special. And so we were wanting to be proactive in getting her out there. So I reached out to the conference again and said, Hey, um, we really feel like something’s gonna happen with Lauren and would you be interested in booking her for next year? And, uh, they said, no thanks <laugh>. Really by the, [00:12:30] by the next year it came, I mean, she blew up <laugh>, you know, at that point. And,

Brad Burrow: And they’re like, wow, we, you shouldn’t, shouldn’t have done that. Huh. <laugh>. Yeah.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. So yeah, it was a great experience and learned a lot and built a lot of great friendships.

Brad Burrow: So, so are you act actively looking for worship artists to, you know, kind of help ’em bring their careers along now? I mean, you know, we’ve got IHOP here Yeah. <laugh>. It seems like there’s some, like Jay Thomas, I don’t know if you know that. Oh

Wisdom Moon: Yeah, I know [00:13:00] Jay.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. Um, there’s some really talented Yeah. Worship leaders and, and artists here in Kansas City.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. So, uh, I do have a record label as well mm-hmm. <affirmative> that I started a year and a half ago. And, uh, we actually partnered with a bigger label, my former employer, integrity Music for the backend support, like distribution and some of the accounting and things like that. And so, uh, we’re on that side of things. We’re looking for artists. [00:13:30] Um, on the agency side, uh, we usually get a lot of inquiries. So I would say anywhere from like, worship

Brad Burrow: Artists trying to,

Wisdom Moon: Um, yeah, like artists. Um, sometimes, you know, it’s outside of worship. We have a lot of, uh, like Christian pop or hip hop or Yeah. Different genres within Christian music. Um, but yeah, I, I would say we get like five to seven inquiries a week, um, from, uh, the music [00:14:00] side and then some from more of the business and like nonprofit side as

Brad Burrow: Well. So, so what are people typically sending to you? Like rough cuts of songs, you know, acoustic versions, what type of stuff are you getting?

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>, it’s like a array <laugh>. Like even, yeah, just the past few days we’ve gotten, uh, just like a Spotify link and somebody saying, Hey, uh, I just released one song, my first single ever, uh, I’m interested in working with you guys to another artist that’s been releasing songs, [00:14:30] you know, for years. And they, uh, sent us like a Dropbox folder of this project that they’re working on. Uh, so it’s like an album, uh, but it’s like a rough mix of the songs. Uh, and then, uh, I think we even have sometimes like, people that reach out and they say, I don’t have any music out yet, but <laugh> I love to work with you. And we basically have to tell him, well reach back to out to us when you have some music out. Cuz we do really review the music before we [00:15:00] commit to.

Brad Burrow: Do you do that? I mean, you,

Wisdom Moon: Uh, we have a team, you know, that. Yeah. Uh, I don’t typically review it like the initial step, uh, but yeah, we have a team that reviews the songs because, you know, with any marketing, uh, the product really has to stand on its own Right. Without the marketing side of it. Marketing really helps, you know, get it out there and spread the word and shine light on it. But if the product is not there, then there’s, you know, only so much you can do for marketing [00:15:30] wise.

Brad Burrow: So tell me, what, what would a typical agreement look like with the record label in, in, in Christian record label? I mean, what, just educate the audience on what that would look like.

Wisdom Moon: Uh, so for an artist that’s signing to

Brad Burrow: A movie Yeah. I’ll say like, let’s say I’ve got, I’ve got, you know, some songs I want to maybe publish or something, and I, I reach out to you and, you know, yeah. You’ve listened to it and maybe you like it and say, okay, let’s, let’s talk. What would, what happens? Yeah.

Wisdom Moon: I would [00:16:00] say, uh, in most cases, artists that do get signed, uh, aren’t ones that reach out to the label. It’s ones that the label like a and r team will hear about through somebody else or discover on their own through a Spotify or something like that. So

Brad Burrow: You’re initiating contact.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. Uh, and you know, it’s interesting how it works that way. I mean, most labels don’t, um, receive unsolicited music because of some legal reasons, but even the ones that [00:16:30] do, uh, they don’t typically find gems in the submissions. It’s usually word of mouth, like from somebody that they trust. Uh, so yeah, if somebody, like, let’s say I discover an artist through somebody or through a playlist on Spotify, uh, we would reach out and say, Hey, would you be interested in having a conversation? And then, uh, really our, our structure is really different than the traditional model of labels, [00:17:00] and that’s really why we started our label. Uh, it’s called Lula Street Records, and we’re doing kind of the opposite of the traditional model. Uh, so a traditional model typically would be the artist basically gives up ownership of the I e p, the intellectual property.

Wisdom Moon: So that’s the, the composition, the song itself. And then it’s also the master, which is the audio, like the recording of the song. And so [00:17:30] when an art assigns to a traditional MO model, they’re giving up ownership of those things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so the label and the publisher, um, basically own both of those, you know, ips and from what I’m, I’ve seen over the years in the industry, you know, things have really shifted from like CDs. I mean, I remember, you know, cassette tapes. Yeah. That was kinda like my genre. Yeah. Right, right. Uh, and actually my, I used to do some like hip hop and [00:18:00] my first project was on the cassette tape <laugh>, like we recorded on the Ford Track, you know? Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then it went to CDs and then downloads, and then stream streaming now. And, uh, because of that, you know, it’s really shaken the industry, uh, especially on the financial level Right.

Wisdom Moon: To figure out like, how do we make this work? Because streaming, you know, payout is a lot smaller than a download payout. So, uh, the traditional model really favors the label [00:18:30] where they own things. And then, uh, basically the artist receives an advance, which is kind of like a salary, you know, and maybe they get a, a couple thousand dollars a month as a beginning artist, uh, but the artist has to, or the label has to recoup that. So whatever the advance was, uh, plus any, like, production costs, marketing costs, like the label is recouping all those things from the sales, you know, from the revenue that comes in. So there are a lot of artists [00:19:00] that you would think are super successful that actually don’t see a penny from their, uh, streaming revenue. They’re paying back the Yeah. Because it’s all going to pay back the label. And because, you know, there are so many big expenses when you’re launching an artist. Yeah. And the label is, you know, investing financially into that. So they’re recouping it. And then the artist, uh, once the advance runs out, you know, they’re waiting to hopefully <laugh>, you know, get past the recoupment, uh, and [00:19:30] then be able to like, generate income that they actually receive. But even then, the percentage is more favorable to the label.

Brad Burrow: So is live, you know, performances, is that the really, the only way that an artist can make money right now

Wisdom Moon: That was perform that was a big way? Uh, yeah. I, I really think live performances and touring, you know, that’s one of the most significant ways that artists can really generate revenue. Um, but there’s also other more creative ways to do it. So [00:20:00] there’s websites like Patreon that allow artists to basically, uh, really grow a community around their music, and they can ask people or give the opportunity for, you know, their supporters or their fans to basically be part of creating the music so they can say, here are, you know, three different options. You can give like $20 a month and you get access to exclusive content every month, and things like that. Uh, and then there’s also like, merge, you [00:20:30] can sell to human generate, generate revenue. Uh, some artists, uh, depending on their genre, they may do what’s called sync, um, licensing. So that’s, you know, music you hear on, you know, tv, uh, movies, commercials Yeah. And things like that. And if you have the, you know, the talent to be able to create those kind of songs, then that could be a, you know, pretty significant revenue.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. That sounds like a lot of fun.

Wisdom Moon: <laugh> Yeah.

Brad Burrow: Feature film stuff, you know, that, that would be a lot of fun. Spotify [00:21:00] talk about Spotify a little bit because it’s really disrupted the whole industry mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, by itself pretty much. Right. Would you agree with that? Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people that, that, I mean, even like big artists, like is it Taylor Swift that won’t even put her stuff on Spotify now, or,

Wisdom Moon: Uh, yeah, it used to be. Yeah.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. But I mean, it, it really has, you know, pennies, um, per play versus, you know, selling in albums a whole different business model. Yeah. I mean, [00:21:30] how, as a record laborer, how, how do you even talk to an artist about that?

Wisdom Moon: Yeah, so the way I look at Spotify and any streaming platform, and the way that I, you know, really encourage artists to look at those platforms is look at it more as an opportunity for discovery versus revenue. And I think even in business, there’s, you know, that shift of mindset when you think about like, places like social media, you know? Yeah. You have to think about it as [00:22:00] an opportunity for discovery, not necessarily for direct revenue. So Spotify’s a great opportunity for artists that are independent, especially to get discovered by fans, you know, potential fans. And, uh, really the trick, the tricky part for most artists is they don’t know how to take that and really, you know, create a community out of it. So that’s where we really try to help the artists think through, like, short, short term, yes, playlisting, running ads, [00:22:30] things like that are great to give you a boost, but those are really short term solutions, and those alone aren’t really gonna build a community.

Wisdom Moon: So we talk about like, how do you actually take that and build a community out of it, um, of people that are really passionate about your music and your, you know, who you are as an artist and who what you’re about, you know? So I think even, uh, in the business context too, there’s, uh, a lot of, you know, businesses [00:23:00] that think of maybe social media in the same way. Like, what this isn’t gonna generate, you know, revenue posting on TikTok isn’t gonna generate revenue. Right. But it’s more like, well, it’s gonna help you help people discover you and feel like they have a relationship with you, and then they’ll do business with you.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. Do you think it’s feasible for an artist to build a subscription model that somebody’s going to give money to every month? I mean, obviously that’s a, a part of Yeah. How they’re doing that. I mean, what, what would I get [00:23:30] out of that if something like that? I guess that’s where my, my mind goes from a business standpoint. It’s like, okay, I love Chris Tomlin, but am I willing to pay 20, 30 bucks a month mm-hmm. <affirmative> to be able to have access to some things that he’s doing? Yeah. I’m not

Wisdom Moon: Sure. Yeah. So there’s this whole idea of, uh, super fans. So if, if you have people that are like diehard fans of your music or whatever you’re creating, [00:24:00] then they’re willing to give you money for it to support you and also to help you continue to do what you’re doing. And, you know, there’s a

Brad Burrow: Like a ministry

Wisdom Moon: Yeah.

Brad Burrow: <laugh> almost, right? Yeah. Like supporting a ministry.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. And there’s a whole, uh, concept of a thousand true fans that, um, I forget what, who the author is, but the whole idea is if you have a thousand true fans or super fans that are willing to pay you a hundred dollars a year, that’s a hundred thousand dollars a year. Yeah. And you can make a living doing what you love. [00:24:30] And so the way that, uh, we look at marketing and working with artists and even organizations is, uh, basically there’s three different categories of people that you’re reaching. So one is, uh, a crowd, so, you know, a crowd, you don’t really see faces, you don’t really know, you know, individual people, but you can reach the masses, you know, with a crowd. So there’s benefits to reaching a crowd. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So [00:25:00] those are things like running Instagram ads, you’re reaching a crowd, um, gotcha.

Wisdom Moon: And then you have, you know, customers that are, you know, customers or clients that are willing to have some kind of transactional relationship. So you give them something in exchange for something that they’re giving you. So in Spotify’s case, you know, they’re paying a subscription or getting access for free, um, and listen to ads. Uh, and then you are getting, [00:25:30] you know, very, very small <laugh>, you know? Yeah. Like $0.01. Right. Right. Not, not very much listen. And, uh, it’s more of a transactional relationship. Uh, but then, uh, community is really like the deepest level you can get with people is how do you build a community where they ha they feel like they really know you, they have a relationship with you, and they feel like they’re a part of this movement that you’re creating. So, uh, it, I [00:26:00] think there are artists that have, even as an independent artist, that have done that really well, where they are able to really support themselves, uh, through other people, you know, through a community that they’ve built.

Wisdom Moon: Uh, it’s hard. It’s really hard to do. And I think it’s really a long-term strategy. Yeah. Um, right. Versus a short-term gain. You know, you have to really invest into it long-term and hope to see the fruits of it later. So like, I think a lot of, a lot of times we can create [00:26:30] something like music or whatever it is, um, and then overnight hope to see the fruits of it. And I think the encouragement I will give is really look at whatever you’re creating as if you’re a farmer. And for a farmer, when you’re sewing seeds the next morning, you don’t get up and, you know, expect a fruit to be there, you know? Yeah. There’s corn. Yeah. You have to cultivate it, you have to water it, you know, you have to really take care of it. And then over time you see fruit. Yeah. And I think [00:27:00] that’s really the right approach with marketing. Yeah.

Brad Burrow: That’s awesome. So what are some of the things that, you know, an artist would offer in a subscription model? I’m really curious about that. From a business. Yeah. I mean, we we’re, we, um, we partner with some, like we have a cookie decorating Yeah. Uh, lady that does cookie decorating tutorials that we’ve done work for, and Oh, cool. And so she’ll come in and we’ll do 60 tutorials in a week Wow. And then share in the, the subscription rev, uh, revenue from [00:27:30] that. And people are learning how Yeah. To decorate cookies. And, you know, they’ll sell those cookies like for a dozen cookies might be 70 bucks mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so they are building a little cottage industry Yeah. You know, from that. But, so what would an artist be able to offer, you know, um, somebody that would be willing to spend $20 a month to support them?

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. I think, you know, what you’re giving as an example is like a skill, you know, and a lot of artists, I think, have skills that they can share. [00:28:00] So maybe it’s, you know, if you are a part of this community, I’ll, uh, provide guitar lessons, like guitar videos, tutorial videos. Okay. Or I’m gonna teach you how to produce songs or write songs, you know, things like that. So that would pertain more to, uh, people that are, you know, really wanting to learn, um, some kind of skill. Right. So, yeah. Maybe not every artist wants to do that. Uh, I mean, I think there’s a really, uh, unlimited ways that you [00:28:30] can approach it. You

Brad Burrow: Just gotta get creative, right?

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>. Yeah. You, yeah. I think it’s taking like, what are you really good at or passionate about that people would want and they would be excited about and be willing to pay attention to and engage with. Cuz you know, if you look at even platforms like masterclass, yes. A lot of people pay for these platforms, but then I pay for ’em <laugh> three months later, they don’t even remember how to log in, you know? Yeah. Uh, so I think it’s, I mean, there’s, [00:29:00] we all do that. We all pay for things, and then we forget about it. Yeah. And we’re like, oh, we don’t, I don’t have time for it now. I’ll do it later. So for an artist, if you want to retain, you know, that relationship, you want to really add a lot of value. Yeah. So I think the biggest really way that you can know what to provide is really knowing who you are serving with your music. So if you know who you’re serving, they, you know what they want, you know, or what they need. Yeah. And

Brad Burrow: Then you build content [00:29:30] that they, that they’re interested in consuming. Yeah. And would you say that the, the masterclass approach? I mean, I, I think that’s been kind of groundbreaking. Mm. I mean, they put a lot of very high production dollars into their content. Yeah. It looks amazing. Sounds amazing. They have amazing people doing it. I mean, the, you know, I’m in the middle of the Ron Howard directing Masterclass right now. I did the, I’ve done several others, and I mean, they’re really, really done well. Yeah. Um, so [00:30:00] it seems like you can see the value in, in something like that. I, I just wonder on the artist side, if that’s, you know, a possibility to, to be able to do something at that level and really build, build a subscription model that does work.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. Uh, there’s actually a really good book that I would, you know, or recommend people read. It’s called Play Bigger. And one of the authors is, uh, Christopher Lockhead. He’s been like a cmo, um, in Silicon Valley for tech companies. And basically [00:30:30] what their whole premise is, uh, you, there’s, you know, product design people design products and create products. Yeah. And then there’s company design. So when you have a successful product, the next step, the logical step typically for a business is you, uh, create or design the company to scale. And you wanna, you know, you’re looking at the organizational aspect. Um, but then the third piece that a lot of companies don’t think about is [00:31:00] category design and

Brad Burrow: Category design.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. And actually, they, uh, they say that you need to think about category design before product design or company design. And category design basically is, um, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Blue, blue Ocean, red Ocean concept? Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you’re, uh, category design is really not even saying, Hey, I’m gonna be in the Blue Ocean, but almost creating your own ocean. You know, <laugh>, I’m going to go here where there isn’t even an ocean. Yeah. [00:31:30] And, uh, that’s what Masterclass I think did. They created a whole category and said, we’re gonna provide like top notch content, you know, a very engaging content by people that everybody would recognize that, you know, top of the industry people, and we’re gonna charge barely anything for it, you know?

Brad Burrow: So can you go, uh, do some research for me and find out what their business model looks like? <laugh>? Cause I don’t know how they make money, honestly. I

Wisdom Moon: Yeah.

Brad Burrow: They’re, they’re obviously making money, but they [00:32:00] have like the top people. Yeah. I mean that why, why would Ron Howard say, yeah, I’ll go ahead and teach a, a course on directing mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it’s shot incredibly well. The content’s, you know, superb.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah.

Brad Burrow: There’s costs for, for things like that. I mean, I just wanna know how they make money.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. I mean, I, I don’t know the BS that’s

Brad Burrow: Your task for this week. Wisdom.

Wisdom Moon: I thought about it a lot. Yeah. And, uh, my guess is that, uh, they [00:32:30] obviously have huge investments, you know, going into it. So they may have like, you know, a lot of investors that are funding it. Yeah. And they may not making, I mean, for example, like Spotify, they’re not profitable, you know, for uh,

Brad Burrow: Years. Joe Rogan gets all their money, right. <laugh>.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of these kind of platforms that aren’t really profitable, but they’re in it for the long haul, and they’re trying to build something incredible. Yeah. And masterclass, I mean, I, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re not profitable. [00:33:00] Yeah. But it’s more they’re spending, you know, millions of dollars in the first five years to really just get everybody on this platform. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of, uh, platforms like that, what would make sense, um, I don’t know if they are doing this or not, but is basically for that course, whoever created that course, they get revenue share from that course. And hopefully they can, you know, look on the back end and go, okay, this many people watch this, [00:33:30] your content. You know, it’s kind of like the Spotify model really. Yeah. Uh, on the back end, you know, they look at like, okay, this many people listen to this song, you know, song. Yeah. You’re a catalog. Um, and basically you’re getting some kind of revenue share from

Brad Burrow: It. Yeah. It’s really interesting. Yeah. I can’t afford to do that approach <laugh> <laugh>, unless you want to invest <laugh>, but it really is an interesting thing. Yeah. Tell me about Lula, um, Lula Street Records. What, what’s that about? Where did the name come from?

Wisdom Moon: Yeah, [00:34:00] so Lula Street Records, um, the, the story behind the name Lula is, uh, my, one of my offices back <laugh> a couple years ago was on the street called Lula.

Brad Burrow: Oh, okay.

Wisdom Moon: Uh, we just changed the spelling a little bit to make it a little bit easier to spell. When you just hear it, it’s l u l a. Yeah. Um, but actually in Latin, I believe it’s, uh, it means Warriors, and so Oh, okay. Yeah. Awesome. So we, uh, really feel like [00:34:30] when, uh, we’re working with artists, they are warriors that are going out into the battlefield and really like giving people, um, tools and weapons to be able to fight their battles in life, you know? Boy, that’s

Brad Burrow: So true. Yeah. We don’t know how true that is. Probably

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, songs are so powerful. Yeah. Uh, and that’s why I’ve been in this industry for so long, because I believe in the power of a song. Um, and Lula Street’s model is really flipped upside down from the traditional [00:35:00] model. So we don’t take ownership of anybody’s music, um, their master or their publishing. Uh, we basically help get it out there through distribution. So like a Spotify, uh, apple Music, these platforms have editorial teams that will curate playlists. So if you see, you know, new music Friday on Spotify, somebody’s curating that playlist right. On their team, so we can actually pitch an artist song to those editorial curators. [00:35:30] Uh, so there’s a lot of value that we bring, uh, to the artist. And another thing that we help with is really, uh, building a community for the artists so they feel like they’re a part of this team, even though if, you know, they may be just a solo artist, um, and they may be in a different genre than another artist on the roster, but we give opportunity for them to connect and have conversations. And every month we actually meet with them and talk through like, strategies, like what’s [00:36:00] working right now. Yeah. You know, what’s going on on TikTok. Um, and then we also talk through just community stuff, life stuff, you know, and pray for each other. Yeah. Uh, so our model is more of a revenue shared model. So,

Brad Burrow: So can you, can you build a, a revenue source through that model? Uh, I mean, I can see the, the, the, uh, mission aspect of it really clearly, and it’s awesome, but we also have to feed our families, you know, <laugh>. So that’s where my mind goes, you know, from a [00:36:30] business standpoint, is, is it feasible?

Wisdom Moon: I would say it is, uh, it is a risk, you know, it’s a risk I’m taking, and I definitely, I am treating it like I’m a farmer <laugh>. Yeah. So I’m looking at it,

Brad Burrow: You’re showing a lot of seeds right now. Right.

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>, I’m looking at it like five years from now, hopefully, you know, we will be able to see the results of like what we’ve invested and like put into this, you know? Yeah. Uh, but yeah, right now it’s the sewing time <laugh>. Yeah. And it’s hard. And, [00:37:00] uh, yeah. Harvest hasn’t come, I would say. Uh, but I do think there is a lot of, uh, just opportunity for independent labels. Yeah. Especially in this model, uh, because you’re not putting as much financial risk into the artist, so,

Brad Burrow: And you’re building relationships, which is really awesome. Yeah. I mean, that’s gonna, that’s gonna help later. You know, one of the things that I, I think about at real media, you know, I really, so I want to ask you this question. Um, I really work on [00:37:30] my long-term goal. I would love to direct feature films. I’d love to direct Yeah. Faith-based feature films. Um, not for Christians, though, for lost people. Yeah. And, uh, you know, do incredible stories. Do ’em at a very high level. We’ve built this facility to be able to accomplish that, but in the meantime, I, I gotta feed my family and I gotta keep, keep everybody, you know, keep this thing going. So that’s where our corporate side comes in. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, so doing the [00:38:00] corporate work, and that is that kind of, you know, what your marketing company is. I mean, would you say it’s a similar, I mean, your heart is kind of doing the faith-based stuff, and to be able to do that, you need to feed the engine through, through corporate work

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>? Yeah. I mean, I, I am, you know, really passionate about marketing and our whole thing is, you know, we wanna work with mission-driven organizations and, you know, we’ve worked with non-Christian organizations, uh, companies that are [00:38:30] not run by Christians, you know, it Yeah. It’s more about like, do you have a purpose just generating revenue? Yeah. Because we want to help people impact, you know, the world

Brad Burrow: Still missional way. Yeah,

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I would say, you know, I, I’m, I do geek out on marketing stuff, <laugh>. Yeah. So geek, I enjoy it. Uh, I enjoy even like, you know, the little things of like setting up ads and just geek geeking out over, like targeting and, you know, [00:39:00] retargeting all those things. Um, but I, I guess, uh, I would say, um, yeah, I think a big part of it is being able to fund these things mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also, um, it’s not one of those things where I just don’t even enjoy doing it. Yeah. Um, so I, I feel like I’m really blessed to be able to do something that I love and then also have these like, passion projects as well. Um, but yeah, I’ve had, um, decades of, uh, just [00:39:30] going through different, like jobs and seasons where it just felt like, man, like literally I had a job where <laugh>, I would look at the clock on the computer in my cubicle, and I would look at it again thinking, oh, it’s been probably like two hours. And it was like 10 minutes later, <laugh>, and I just ate it, you know, that it

Brad Burrow: Usually happens to me about four in the morning. <laugh>.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. The timing’s up yet now yet, <laugh>. Yeah, that’s exactly right. All [00:40:00] right. So I, I we’re about to wrap up, but I wanted to, I want to talk to you about, um, the tools that we have now for marketing, you know, geofencing. Yeah. You know, um, targeting, I mean, it’s amazing what we have the ability to do now. Yeah. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, from a, I mean, if you’re gonna stay cutting edge from a marketing standpoint, doesn’t matter if it’s for a music artist or, or for a credit union, you really need to understand technology [00:40:30] in, in the capability. And then I want to ask you about ai.

Wisdom Moon: Oh, <laugh>.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. Yes. Uh, but I mean, all of that, I mean, that’s, that’s, there’s, we’re living an amazing time.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. There, there are a lot of tools. Uh, there are a lot of things. Basically, if I talked about some of the capabilities, you know, that’s the stuff that people will freak out about and they’re like, I don’t want to use Facebook. You know? Yeah. Like, people have, uh, flipped out about like [00:41:00] Facebook’s privacy stuff. Yes. And, uh, my whole approach is like, there is no such thing as privacy these days. I mean,

Brad Burrow: Give it up. Yeah.

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>, I mean, you have to live off the grid. Exactly. Yeah. I watched this video actually on TikTok, um, a few weeks ago where it was like a news, you know, uh, investigation type show, and they had two Google phones and neither of ’em were, had data or service or anything. And the, the guy [00:41:30] basically drove around New York with these two phones that were, um, I don’t think one of ’em was even turned on, drove around. And then basically, uh, they connected it to the internet afterwards and they filtered it through their program to see what it was sending Google. And it was scary <laugh> like in you every location you went to. Yes. And this is not having data <laugh>, you know, so Yeah. That’s the world we live in. That’s cell phone. Yeah. I mean, yeah. The world we [00:42:00] live in, uh, I think a lot of people wanna believe we have privacy, but I don’t know that we really do. So, uh, it’s, yeah. When, when you, when you think about all the ways that you can get a message in front of people, it can be kind of scary <laugh>, you know? Yeah. Because yeah. I mean, we could actually take a list of a addresses and basically target their IP addresses at, at home and show them ads at home and at work Yeah. Just from having their address, you know,

Brad Burrow: [00:42:30] I mean, the power of that is amazing. You think about, you know, I, I, I mean even, even from, you know, heating and cooling companies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, for example, you know, the houses in this neighborhood probably have a heating and cooling system mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that’s, you know, 15 to 20 years old mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I’m gonna serve up ads and, you know, to everybody in that neighborhood. Yeah. The power of That’s amazing.

Wisdom Moon: And you can target by their income and Yes. You know, how many kids they have

Brad Burrow: <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable. [00:43:00] Yeah. Um, yeah. So that’s, that to me is, is a very interesting thing. And, and that’s why I feel pretty good about our future mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, from a video content. Yeah. And a content company is like, that’s gonna,

Wisdom Moon: I think, well, with this think video content is so huge right now. Like Yeah. Especially short form video. Uh, I think there, there are more, uh, organizations than not, that are not really utilizing it well. And because it, you know, it [00:43:30] feels daunting and it feels like it’s a huge investment. It feels like, you know, you’re really taking a huge risk, um, to just throw stuff out on TikTok or Instagram reels. Yeah. But like, that’s, our world right now is short form videos. People don’t, people don’t really have long attention spans. They want to be fed, you know, information that they’re interested in within seconds,

Brad Burrow: <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. You’re exactly right. And so [00:44:00] the winners are the ones that are, are winning in that realm right now, aren’t they? From a, especially from a marketing standpoint. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree that. Okay. Ai and then we’ll finish up <laugh>. So I don’t know what’s happened, um, like in the last month, <laugh> Chat, G P t is coming to my attention. Um, discord, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Discord, but that’s, yeah. It’s the place where you can type in a description of an image and AI comes back with an image. [00:44:30] I mean, it unbelievable. I feel like we’re, we’re witnessing right before our eyes a revolution of some sort mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, it’s happening, it’s Oh yeah. This weird stuff. I wrote three country music songs yesterday, <laugh> one about a Blackstone Grill <laugh>, just to see what happened. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I recorded albums and stuff like that. They’re pretty good. Mm-hmm. I mean, the lyrics are really pretty spot on. And I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s

Wisdom Moon: Unbeliev and you know, there’s AI [00:45:00] that can now produce music for you too.

Brad Burrow: Well, I figured <laugh> I haven’t seen, I haven’t tried that yet, but yeah. I mean, that’s on, on some level. It’s really cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> on another level, it’s scary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, you could, yeah, we could go write a worship song right now, <laugh>. I mean, you could type in Yeah. You know, the things that we wanna be in and then come back with with, you know, a bridge the chorus. Yeah. Three sets of three verses. I mean, that’s crazy.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. [00:45:30] I feel like, uh, tools like chat, g p t are great tools and, you know, it hel it’s helping solve a lot of problems for people right now. Um, and also it’s an entertainment factor too. Like,

Brad Burrow: You’re typing, it’s entertaining. You’re typing in like, okay,

Wisdom Moon: Here

Brad Burrow: <laugh>,

Wisdom Moon: Uh, I think, you know, things like chat G P T at least right now, um, they can’t create new things, you know, they can’t just create a new idea out of thin air like we can [00:46:00] Yeah, that’s true. And so that’s where it’s more of a tool that you can utilize to help you develop ideas. You know, maybe you’re, uh, writing a writing copy for an ad on Facebook or something. Yeah. And you have an idea for what you want to say, but maybe you’re not great at crafting that, you know, and crafting words. So you put it into chat G p t and say, you know, act as a advertising <laugh>, you know, expert and rewrite this copy Yes. For Facebook ad that targets, [00:46:30] you know, 60 plus year roles, blah, blah, blah. And then it will spit something out for you. And, uh, it basically helps you save some time. And, you know, uh, it, it can be a really good tool. I think, uh, there’s a danger in relying too heavily on it where you start to lose, uh, people that could really be skilled in writing. Right. And it may actually cause us to have, uh, a shortage of really great writers,

Brad Burrow: <laugh>. Yeah. I think that’s, yeah, I [00:47:00] think you’re right. I mean, a lot of people are gonna say, well, why would I hire a copywriter now? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I think you’re right. That, that it’s like that pendulum and what we always do is go too far, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s inevitable that that’s, that’s gonna happen.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. I would say chat b t is a new category, you know, it’s category design. It’s not really competing with Google cuz it’s not the same thing.

Brad Burrow: Although I saw, uh, uh, something somewhere where the Google Board has [00:47:30] brought back the original founders of Google, cuz they’re on Red alert right now about, about chat G P T and, and what it’s doing to search engine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> results. I mean,

Wisdom Moon: Oh yeah. They’re very threatened. Google would <laugh>, it’s their biggest threat right now is chat G P

Brad Burrow: T. Yeah. I mean, if you have a computer that knows the algorithms and can figure out how to write copy that the algorithms are gonna like mm-hmm. <affirmative> everybody and their brother is gonna be using it to write blogs and all kinds of things for search engine [00:48:00] results. Yeah.

Wisdom Moon: Uh, it <laugh> one funny example, uh, cuz I was showing it to like my kids and my oldest is 17 and he was just messing with it, and he put in like, um, how do I break up with the girl

Brad Burrow: <laugh>? Oh

Wisdom Moon: No. It was gi giving him, you know, I mean, it almost sounded like a counselor the way it was like spinning out information to put that same thing in Google. You just have, you know, endless scrolling of articles and you don’t know like, well, is this, you know, credible? [00:48:30] Is this website credible? Right. And you have to sift through all of it, whereas chat G P T is basically giving you one piece of advice and saying like, this is it. You know?

Brad Burrow: So they’re guessing a point of view based on the input that you’ve put into Yeah. Ask. Yeah. And then the image generation thing is, yeah. Pretty. I mean, I’m, it is just kind of fun, you know, I did a Santa Claus on a Rocket

Wisdom Moon: <laugh>,

Brad Burrow: You should see the results of it. It’s amazing. I mean, it’s like, I couldn’t [00:49:00] have come up with the, the creative direction Yeah. In something like that. I mean, yeah. And then you do a couple different iterations of it and it’s like they come back different. It’s really, yeah. I think quite amazing

Wisdom Moon: The ai, there’s, there’s so much coming with it. Uh, I, yeah,

Brad Burrow: We’re just,

Wisdom Moon: Yeah, we’re scratching the surface surface right now. We’re just Yeah. Dabbling into it. Because even though a week ago I used one of those like design AI platforms, uh, I think it was Canva. Canva has one now. Yeah, right. <laugh>, I just put in like a guy playing the keyboard [00:49:30] and the guy had like six fingers, <laugh>

Brad Burrow: <laugh>.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. Like there was like a arm coming out. <laugh>. Yeah. Extra arm and yeah. Yeah. I think it has a long ways to go. Uh, but I mean, it’s the hot topic right now. Yeah, it is. And there’s gonna be a lot of innovation coming, so.

Brad Burrow: Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird how that just in the last two weeks, I’ve, for some reason I’ve just noticed it big time in the last, last couple of weeks. But, uh, yeah, it’s definitely interesting times. We live in, [00:50:00] well, um, wisdom, how can somebody get ahold of you, you know, if they’re interested in, you know, engaging with you, not only as a, as a music artist, um, um, but also on the marketing side.

Wisdom Moon: Yeah. So the easiest way is marketing with and then, uh, we have information on, uh, how to work with us as an organization and also as artists. Um, I also share a lot of content just on Instagram. Um, if you just look me up or look up [00:50:30] marketing with wisdom. Okay.

Brad Burrow: And the last thing before we go, you have to do the movie voice.

Wisdom Moon: Oh,

Brad Burrow: <laugh>. So, you know, we’ve got, and you have the voice to do this. A lot of people don’t do it, but you gotta get real close to mine. Say

Brad Burrow: In a world with Real media,

Wisdom Moon: Or I’ve never done this before, <laugh>, I’m gonna give him my best.

Brad Burrow: Okay. All right. No pressure. No pressure.

Wisdom Moon: A new, uh, a few takes, but so In A World with Real Media, with Real Media In the World, with Real Media,

Brad Burrow: Pretty darn [00:51:00] good. <laugh>. All right. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for, for being with me today, that Thank you. That’s awesome. There’s, I think there’s a lot of really cool stuff in here. So, and, uh, we need to go, uh, I guess write some country music songs real

Wisdom Moon: Quick. <laugh>. Yeah, let’s do

Brad Burrow: It. All right. It’s The In A World with Real Media Podcast. Uh, thanks for joining us. Uh, tell your friends about it and, uh, let me know if you wanna be on. Thanks.

OUTRO: This has been In A World with Real Media. Thanks for joining us. And be sure to subscribe on iTunes and follow Real Media on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. So you never miss an episode.